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Old 28-05-2009, 07:11 PM
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Default EA National Stocking Policy for Trout

Hi guys

This could be a bit 'long winded' but of utmost importance.

I attended an EA meeting last night.....to which I had pre submitted a question for review.

Having received a 'pack' upon entry containing the written answers to questions I had to listen to an EA delivered speech on 'effective two way communication' and how EA 'delivers' to its 'stakeholders'.......then told there would be no time to take serious questions on the answers given in item 7 of the agenda(Answers To Written Questions)....10 mins allowed for 14 questions.let alone I had no time to consider their answer.

Don't panic.....I took them to task on the issue and now have the opportunity to have a proper debate at the next meeting..with the author of the response......but will come to that shortly.

It transpired that the subject of the national stocking policy is now a "closed book" and archived in 2015.... or at most, one that has slim chance of re-opening with new 'evidence'.

Apparently its what WE want......so come on.....WHO SAID IT?

In a room of about 25 non EA ......only 1 person spoke against me....his stance that his members liked to kill an odd one or two, but didn't want to kill the wild ones, so was happy to yield.

So EA want item 4 on the agenda...."Communication Strategy" to be a keyword......In the words of Steve Chambers..."I can guarantee to listen,I can guarantee to get it to head office,but after that....."
In my own words,here on this forum......I will push this FURTHER than EA too.....with your help....we need a groundswell of rejection.

The 'policy' is NOT work in progress and NOT likely to be reviewed without support from the ground upwards.

Not an easy task!....I realise there will be many out in forum land that have no concept of the implications of stocking 'triploid', 'farmed', and 'genetically b@ggered' trout in relation the sustainability of our WBT(wild Brown Trout) population......maybe some forum debates on 'scale adhesion' or 'skeletal deformity' for example.
Did you know that scale adhesion was one of the formative points in the keeping of 'closed season' on rivers?.......you may find out why later

My mind is spinning and I'm still incensed....so if you feel I'm out of order then please say so.

I suppose I should post my question and it's response.....I've already 'picked the bones' of the response(and will leave to see if some of you lot cover the 'issues') but would like lots of 'well considered' points to communicate back to EA and also the advisory committee I sit on.

This may even go to print.....with permission from admin.....but shouldn't unduly worry anyone who uses a pseudonym.

My question
Quote:
In relation to the stocking of triploid Brown Trout in our rivers in the new national policy.

In the 'response' document EA say "The impact of triploid trout on wild trout recovering from spawning is an area that we would wish to examine in further detail"

What has been implemented thus far and will this be based on 'models' developed in Europe....or fresh studies undertaken by EA?
Will these studies encompass the impact of triploids,having no feed suppression at spawning time,being a major predator to wild fish sustainability?
Answer
Quote:
One of the areas that we wish to research in further detail is the potential impact of over-wintering triploid trout and fertile farmed trout on the recovery of wild trout after spawning.No research has been carried out on this aspect as yet,due to us not being successful in securing funding for this specific work.However,we will continue to pursue funding oppertunities that will allow us to undertake this new work. This is likely to be in partnership with other researchers with an interest in this field in England an Wales

It is the intention that these proposed studies will examine the diet,behavior and condition of stocked triploid, fertile farmed trout and wild spawning trout during spawning and recovery through the autumn and winter periods.We already have some limited research evidence on these aspects from the collaborative research project undertaken with the Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust (previously the Game Conservancy Trust)

Observations of the behaviour of radio-tagged stocked triploid and fertile farmed trout alongside wild spawning trout demonstrated no movement of the triploids to the spawning areas,when both fertile farmed trout and wild trout were seen to be spawning together.

Examination of the summer diets of stocked triploid,fertile farmed and wild trout showed the wild trout to be greater predators of small fish than either type of stocked fish.

From typical spring stockings,both types of stocked trout do not survive or grow well to the end of summer.At best 15% of the stocked trout were re-captured during summer surveys.This indicates that relatively few of both types of stocked trout are likely to survive through to the spawning period.
All types of trout, being cold blooded, will experience suppressed appetites during the cold autumn to spring periods,coupled with naturally reduced availability of food at this time.

Contrary to popular perceptions,triploid trout are actually less agressive than either fertile farmed trout or wild trout.

As already mentioned and notwithstanding these preliminary observations, it remains our intention to implement this additional research to examine these over-wintering performance questions in detail.

We would point out that our revised trout stocking policy was based on factual research evidence, collected from throughout the native European range of the trout,rather than from any conceptual models as is suggested in the question.
Phew!

Three things are very clear:

EA have implemented nothing as far as research is concerned!
EA will not do so unless funding is given
EA science guys could do with a few pointers as to reality.... from us hands on guys.

I'm not 'blaming' EA (at the sharp end)......they have constraints.
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Old 28-05-2009, 07:38 PM
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Why not simply ignore the EA and get owners and clubs to pack in stocking and with the money saved start hiring keepers for some husbandry? I've said before, this is in our power because we are the ones paying the money. If we only spend money where it will be used for husbandry and wild fish only policies with habitat improvement and protection then we will get what we want, eventually. Market forces always win in the end. We are the market so we should win. It just needs us to speak with those to whom we pay our money. The EA is a red herring that delivers nothing but trite words and claims credit for the work of others. There are some superb folk in the EA but they are outnumbered by time-serving, idle wasters who are looking for the day they retire on a nice public sector pension. You wouldn't pay them in washers!

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Old 28-05-2009, 08:20 PM
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Triploid and Diploid Trout? Re, EA, policy on stocking! As an angler and with future conservation in mind, I am totally against the idea of putting non breeding eating machines in to our river systems, these fish (Triploid and Diploid Trout) will, continue to feed through the winter months; and would be detrimental to the spawning of WBT (wild brown trout) in our rivers. The research done so far is inadequate; although, it was stated that the likely-hood of these fish (Triploid and Diploid Trout) surviving through the cold winter months, is most unlikely, especially in the spawning areas of the WBT, which mostly take place in the very cold head-waters of our streams and rivers; but there is no guarantee that these fish would not survive through the winter months, and feed on the eggs of the natural fish population, thus being detrimental to the future population of Wild Brown Trout!!
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Old 28-05-2009, 08:41 PM
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Hmmm... interesting question SK, and usual, one not without challenge. Need to have a quiet think on this one before posting!

...and Mostyn...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mostyn View Post
Triploid and Diploid Trout? Re, EA, policy on stocking! As an angler and with future conservation in mind, I am totally against the idea of putting non breeding eating machines in to our river systems, these fish (Triploid and Diploid Trout) will, continue to feed through the winter months; and would be detrimental to the spawning of WBT (wild brown trout) in our rivers.
Diploids are fertile, Triploids are not.
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Old 28-05-2009, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigermoth View Post
Hmmm... interesting question SK, and usual, one not without challenge. Need to have a quiet think on this one before posting!

...and Mostyn...



Diploids are fertile, Triploids are not.
Hi Dave,
Yes, I know they're fertile; but the point I was trying to make, is that they would both IMHO have a detrimental effect on WBT.

It's the Genetic interference I'm not happy with! Lets leave it to "Mother Nature" Hope they never go in the Usk River!! Either of them!!
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Old 28-05-2009, 09:22 PM
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I can't get my head around the consumption of valuable fish meal* by a fish, when so many people** are starving in the world. With persistence levels averaging 3% after the first winter, we aren't talking value for money either. Aren't 'we' rich and decadent!


*Wildlife Extra.com "Sand eels, a key supply chain food, are disappearing from the North Sea."
http://www.wildlifeextra.com/do/ecco...itemid=1203#cr 28th May 2009

**Guardian.co.uk "Nearly a billion people worldwide are starving, UN agency warns" http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...od-environment 28th May 2009
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Old 28-05-2009, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warrenslaney View Post
I can't get my head around the consumption of valuable fish meal* by a fish, when so many people** are starving in the world. With persistence levels averaging 3% after the first winter, we aren't talking value for money either. Aren't 'we' rich and decadent!


*Wildlife Extra.com "Sand eels, a key supply chain food, are disappearing from the North Sea."
http://www.wildlifeextra.com/do/ecco...itemid=1203#cr 28th May 2009

**Guardian.co.uk "Nearly a billion people worldwide are starving, UN agency warns" http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...od-environment 28th May 2009
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Old 29-05-2009, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sedgeking View Post
Phew!

Three things are very clear:

EA have implemented nothing as far as research is concerned!
EA will not do so unless funding is given
EA science guys could do with a few pointers as to reality.... from us hands on guys.

I'm not 'blaming' EA (at the sharp end)......they have constraints.
Hmmmm... SK, one thing that leaps out at me is just how poor the depth and breadth of research is in this area. The EA's response to your question refers to the GCT's findings: Here it is. I find it laughable that this research is considered statistically robust enough to draw any kind of firm conclusions from. A couple of rivers and a few dozen fish, or I have I missed something
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Old 29-05-2009, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigermoth View Post
Hmmmm... SK, one thing that leaps out at me is just how poor the depth and breadth of research is in this area. The EA's response to your question refers to the GCT's findings: Here it is. I find it laughable that this research is considered statistically robust enough to draw any kind of firm conclusions from. A couple of rivers and a few dozen fish, or I have I missed something
You haven't missed anything. This is bad science, written in the hope that whoever is reading this will pick up on the "important bits" (no difference in angler-experience between triploids, diploids and wild fish) and not worry about the lack of statistical infomation - I couldn't find any - maybe I missed something?

If I'm being asked to take this data seriously I want to see more than a couple of bar-charts and some dodgy sampling.
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Last edited by davidh; 29-05-2009 at 06:55 AM.
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Old 29-05-2009, 07:22 AM
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EA has stakeholders? As in it's a private entity?

Or is that shareholders

Good god yeah. Whats the point in putting non bredding fish in?
No point in putting the jaffa trout in there. Ok for a fishery 'maybe' but not for an eco system
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