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Old 28-11-2009, 10:41 AM
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Default Has rod developments gone as far as they can go?

Rods have changed over the years and today are alot lighter and pleasurable to use.

But Have they gone as far as they can go in as far as change?

for instance,the blanks are alot thinner and we do find more breakages with them than a few years ago,Gimmicky things like carrots,being used,grips on the butts,fancier reel seat housings etc.

But what more can be changed on a rod for the better?

I understand a better quality cork,reel seat housing etc, but blanks are really very much the same apart from colours ,arnt they?
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Old 28-11-2009, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by morayflyfisher View Post
I understand a better quality cork,reel seat housing etc, but blanks are really very much the same apart from colours ,arnt they?
Rod manufacturers haven't a hope if the majority of anglers think this.
IMHO the majority of makers will go under because people won't be willing to pay the extra couple of hundred, and R&D will grind to a halt except for a few small boutique makers, whose prices will be astronomically high - there will always be a small percentage willing to pay for something different (cane, specialised tapers, spaceage materials, etc, etc).
We've already seen this in reels, with the majority blending into one and all made in Asia, but with bench makers still cutting out a small portion of the market (but lucrative) for themselves.
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Old 28-11-2009, 11:27 AM
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Presumably people thought the same thing when they were using cane and when they were using fibreglass. Why do you believe rods will be made of carbon fibre in 50 years time?
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Old 28-11-2009, 11:34 AM
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Thought carrot fibres where the next big thing in blank development?

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Old 28-11-2009, 11:48 AM
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So where can the changes be made?

if there is a replacement for carbon fibre which Im sure in the future ,there will,that would be a change.the carrot rod has died a death as you dont hear much about it now.

but if you look at blanks on rods at present ,they do look very much the same with a different name on them.

Most NEW rods look very much the same at present,which prompted the question.
I do say Most, not all.
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Old 28-11-2009, 11:57 AM
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I think it would be incremental and fairly small changes from here on in. The new range of Italian rods with welded guides that Phil Bailey of Flyfishwithme.net imports look interesting.

I fished with Phil recently and he was very excited about them.

See his recent post advertising them look here.

http://www.flyforums.co.uk/trade-cla...tribution.html
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Old 28-11-2009, 11:58 AM
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I imagine changes in this kind of field don't come incrementally but suddenly. Cane rods didn't gradually evolve into fibreglass and then gradually into carbon fibre. These changes occur suddenly and by definition they are unexpected - otherwise they would have occured earlier.

I'm saying this with no expertise in the area but it makes sense to me.
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Old 28-11-2009, 12:11 PM
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I understand what your saying sewinbasher,thats a months morgage to me for one of them and wouldnt look at a rod that price myself,others will.

You say what i was thinking myself there ,it is small changes which are being made,but little actual change on blanks apart from colour and whippings and rings.

I just feel they have hit the limit where they are, either just right or just over with the thinness and lightness of the blank.I mean can they get them any lighter ,apart from changing weight on cork,reel seat housings,ferrules etc,But the blank itself ????

Im only curious not knocking any of them and interested on what others think.

Alot more are broken these days than a few years ago,which was why it prompted the question.Yes most is careless ness and we should realise they are not designed to bend like a hairpin or to hang a fish to release it.

but surely they cant get any thinner.
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Old 28-11-2009, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sewinbasher View Post
I think it would be incremental and fairly small changes from here on in. The new range of Italian rods with welded guides that Phil Bailey of Flyfishwithme.net imports look interesting.

I fished with Phil recently and he was very excited about them.

See his recent post advertising them look here.

http://www.flyforums.co.uk/trade-cla...tribution.html
You are right on this Paul.

It was very interesting spending time at Modern Flies this week.

Aldo Silva is right at the cutting edge for rod design as his clients are demanding longer and lighter rods (see the 10' 2 weight).

Modern Flies are now making rods for other manufacturers (Marryat is one such brand) who are unable to or don't want to make rods such as his.

He supports two research fellowships at the University of Italy and the University of Sweden and the focus is rod design and materials.

What he produces is a result of that research. His tapers are built to specifications from the very best French, Italian, Polish, Czech and Croatian champions who want light, fine soft tip rods similar to those used in Course angling. They are now fishing tippet size around 9x.

Imagine that over here. They do have some very special and secret leader formulas that enable them to get down to that thickness but the rod is the key to it all.

However, over a bottle of wine I did question him on where he thinks the limits are. His response was interesting.

The first thing we discussed was rod action. He believes that rod makers using traditional composites and resins are about at their limit and his capability of producing light rods and tapers is built around different graphite paper and new resins. It is unlikely that there will be a rapid conversion to these as most fly fishermen simply do not have the capability to benefit from any new rod and most rod makers focus on the mass market.

We then went on to discuss materials. He believes that it will be some time before carbon fibre is replaced. This material allows rod makers to design idiosyncrasies into rod formulas that make the rod unique. He himself has some 100's of formulas which he uses for bespoke rod building. The real change will come with materials and the degree with which rod makers will change their manufacturing process to get the best from them. He also doesn't see this moving too far as rod making tooling is expensive to replace. His equipment has evolved with his rods so it has kept pace with changes in materials. This is what is different and unique about his rod designs.

Lastly we talked about the manufacturing process. It is true that he uses welded guides on the Maxia range and will probably continue to do so on future rods. However again, the ability to do this has come from the materials he uses. So it is unlikely that there will be a wholesale swing to this style of guide.

The real change may very well come from price. Despite the uniqueness of the Modern Flies rods they are still not as expensive as say a Sage or Loomis. But they are significantly better. He has been able to compete because he has a niche that the larger rod makers are just not interested in attacking. Far too small. And anyway, he is satisfied with the size of his market which deals with very special rods to very good fly fishermen. Other rod manufactures will either merge (as we have seen with Loomis/Shakespeare/Shimano)or be forced to squeeze price to maintain market share.
There is likely to be shake out even here in the UK. I recently read an article by the new owner of Partridge and his view is that the small players will suffer as they are competing directly with the same products as the larger players.
Niche players like Modern Flies who have been around for decades have a dedicated band of followers who will pay for something different.

All very interesting though and it is part of the manufacturing evolution.
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Old 28-11-2009, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morayflyfisher View Post
Rods have changed over the years and today are alot lighter and pleasurable to use.

But Have they gone as far as they can go in as far as change?
I think rod development muast be going backwards Kev.... I bought a Sage RPL 11'3'' 2 piece 6wt when the RPL range was current, about 15 yrs ago or so. The weight of this wand is 3 and 5/8 oz. I've always kept my eye on developments in the 11' market, and, in all those years never seen any other comparable rod come close in terms of weight, never mind lighter. Even today, I see 9' rods with a medium line rating that weigh more.
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