And when does what might be judged an imitative fly become a lure?

Many years ago, the late Fred Wagstaffe spent a great deal of his time in pursuit of the big grown-on brown trout of Grafham and Rutland Water. He devised a "fly" called a Waggy which had a flexible rubber wiggle tail at the back, was tied tandem style and looked for all the world like a small fish in the water. Fred came under a lot of stick for "cheating"; but was he really?

He was actually "matching the hatch" in the best way possible. Big still water brown trout, whether they live in lake, loch or reservoir, feed mainly on small fish, and some bigger ones too. I once found a small yellowfish of at least a pound in the jaws of a 7 pound brownie years ago.

An talking of flies, there is no doubt in my mind that some of them represent nothing on earth, fully dressed traditional salmon flies for example or the range of trout traditionals such as Wickhams Fancy, Partridge and Orange, Alexandra, Mallard and Claret etc etc. Perhaps an angler using a sparkler lure, or a zonker, or a minkie is being far more sporting in the immitative sense?

And maybe, just maybe, a few of those wonderfully tied nymphs we see are taken by trout not because of what they represent, but because they have invaded a trout's territory and have caused a violent response from the trout.

Heaven forbid!

All flies are lures. Unless we become fish we will never know why a fish takes our flies. As long as we catch fish with them then they have worked and have lured a fish into taking the hook into their mouth, the end result is the same no matter what designation we attach to different styles of fly. We, as humans, set limitations for ourselves and those who prefer to fish the more imitative looking flies over the nondescript ones get no less pleasure from the sport.

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Don't worry, be happy.
Sandy
Carried it in full, then carry it out empty.

As fishtales points out, all flies are to some extent 'lures' as theyre not natural and aim to entice a fish to take. For the purposes of this thread though, and IMO i think a 'lure' is a fly that's not tied to deliberately replicate something natural. A blob for example is a 'lure' despite people saying they may look like a cloud of caenis.. A cat's whisker or Minkie is also a 'lure' as are the long tailed dog nobblers and indeed most modern 'damsels'! Lures have been around for years, the old Vivas, baby dolls, muddlers Jersey Herds etc are all, imo, lures which a fish takes more out of curiosity or agression than a pure feeding response.

would it be safe to say that anything under the water is a lure (excluding buzzers) and anything that sits on top of the water is imitation ?

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id rather be snorting coke of a hookers ass but fishing looks better on my cv

I would have said no. You can well represent several types of trout food other than buzzers subsurface - olive nymphs, corixa, snails, shrimps and hoglice, fry, cased caddis and sedge pupae, and several more. While a greased up muddler or booby, when fished fast as a wake fly topside, is clearly a "shameless lure"

Shameless, but often effective, let me say....

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"Depend on it Sir, this is a battle you sometimes win, and sometimes must expect to lose" - the Compleat Angler
JH based near Southampton

when you lose one!!!!!

the fishery where i fish banned all bobbys and im not sure what fly it is but basically its a hook with a round ball of material think its ment to imitate an egg of some description

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id rather be snorting coke of a hookers ass but fishing looks better on my cv

Reaper, "...a hook with a round ball of material think its ment to imitate an egg of some description" could equally describe a booby, a blob or an egg fly.

Can I suggest you have a look at this commercial fly supplier's web site where you can see the differences between them....

http://www.iainbarrflyfishing.co.uk/shop/

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"Depend on it Sir, this is a battle you sometimes win, and sometimes must expect to lose" - the Compleat Angler
JH based near Southampton

Boobies are a generic range of flies, mainly with two large round eyes made from highly bouyant foam plastic that look like "boobs" hence the name. The concept of the booby was invented by Gordon Fraser, a rather excellent midlands still water angler and fly tier who came to prominance in the 80s with his book - "Mastering the Nymph".

These flies are commonly fished at the end of a fast sinking line with a short leader.

The idea of using a highly bouyant fly with a fast sinking line is not new. The first person to put forward the idea was probably Cyril Inwood, followed by Dick Walker with his highly effective Rasputin. Steve Parton followed it up with his Rassler.

All three people mentioned here were/are highly innovative fly fishers who at times used to get themselves in trouble with the traditionalists. Dick Walker created more effective trout catching patterns than anyone I know, many of which are still in use today.

It depends what you are trying to achieve in your trout fishing. I have got to a stage where the challenge is for me to tie and present a fly that imitates what the trout I am trying to catch is eating. I need to deceive the fish that my fly is food and not just to provoke an aggressive reaction. Others will have a different view and that's fine provided it's legal.

For me a fly is a fly when it looks like something that trout eat, is presented to the trout in the correct place (surface or sub surface) and moved at the natural speed for whatever it is imitating, whether that be dead drift or with some movement.

It can be anything from a tiny midge or nymph to a roach fry depending on what the trout are feeding on or regard as food.

If the fly is not used in the above scenario then it is a lure. A damselfly nymph fished in December in fast pulls is a lure not a fly.

By the way I have used Waggies for fry feeding trout and very good they were too.

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“There is no more lovely country than Monmouthshire in early spring. Nowhere do the larks sing quite so passionately, as if somehow inspired by the Welsh themselves. There is a blackbird on every thorn and a cock chaffinch, a twink as they call him there, on every bush...... It moved me profoundly. I had been spared to see another spring, and I thank God for it.”

Oliver Kite
“A Spring Day on the Usk”
A Fisherman’s Diary