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Old 15-07-2009, 09:39 AM
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Default Some interesting points on a rod's action

Hi Folks,

Not endorsing this but I think it may help some beginners get a better feel for what is meant by a slow, moderate or fast rod and on line weights.
Interesting for non-beginners as well as I have a feeling we could have a field day arguing with the information on here.

http://www.common-cents.info/

Enjoy

VT
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Old 15-07-2009, 10:24 AM
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Yes, I have studied this in the past and there are some very good points and observations. I have also tested many rods using the practical tests he proposed. The most important by far, as far as I'm concerned, is the frequency of the rod. This is very easily tested too (and all manufacturers should supply this information). But surprisingly what he didn’t propose (as far as I can remember) was to test the frequency of the rod with different loads applied. For me this is the number 1 test and gives us a clue to the real AFTM of the rod. The big question is (for me anyway) at what frequency is a fly rod sweet?

Anyway, a very interesting subject. Looking forward to hearing more.

Colin.
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Old 15-07-2009, 12:36 PM
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Somebody should tell the man that a rod doesn't have power. It is a medium for transferring energy from the casting hand to the line in flight. Not trying to be smart, but if we are going to be technical, best not to start with a misconception. In physics, power is the rate of doing work. TC
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Old 15-07-2009, 12:37 PM
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You know i started reading the stuff on that site and a few pages into part 2, i remembered i was on my holiday!

Anyone care to post a quick summary?
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Old 15-07-2009, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Cousin View Post
Somebody should tell the man that a rod doesn't have power. It is a medium for transferring energy from the casting hand to the line in flight. Not trying to be smart, but if we are going to be technical, best not to start with a misconception. In physics, power is the rate of doing work. TC
Good point Terry, but applying the term 'power' to a rod could be a useful way of describing how quickly ('rate') it can transfer energy. Therefore a 'fast' rod would be able to transfer energy (I.E. straighten) faster than a 'slow' rod.
It would also have the same ability in reverse of being able to be loaded at a faster rate.
I know that talking about rods as springs can be a bit thin ice round here, but to use an analogy, an air gun with a stronger spring is termed more powerful than one with a weaker spring even though the power is not inherent in the spring, rather loaded as potential energy when cocking the gun. The spring unloads faster as is therefore more powerful.

(Time to duck now!!)

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Old 15-07-2009, 03:39 PM
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Yeah but we do the 'work' of loading the rod in the first place.

The rod acts acts a 'spring' (dont care what people want to debate about that) and stores our enegry in the rod.

This is then disapated back into our forward cast as we move the loaded rod forward (same on the backcast too)

Energy doesn't magically appear form anywhere and must come from somewhere and be converted into another source
In a rods case, kinetic (our arms casting movement) into potential (the energy stored in the rod)

So really, the type of rod is irrelavant. None are better than the other.
If you have a slow rod, it flexes more and needs less to load it. A fast rod flexes less and needs more speed/energy to load it.
You're still doing all the work!!

A powerful rod means it simply needs more power (speed) to load the rod.
This can help in faster line speeds and therefore maybe longer distances
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Old 15-07-2009, 03:54 PM
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Hi' Andy. My working life background was a scientific one -- electronics -- and I tend to be over-precise at times; but I have been involved with teaching kids, and a few adults, to fish over a long period, and I avoid the use of descriptive terms that might mislead. I hear professionals saying, 'Let the rod do the work.' for example, and I know exactly what that means, but it sometimes results in beginners thinking that the 'spring' in their hand will throw the line forwards for them if they simply throw it backwards over their shoulder, and wait for the rebound. I stick to my old description of the rod, which is that it is a flexible extension of the arm, which permits the angler to generate higher line speeds than he can by using just his hand and arm. And I have seen a professional caster do exactly that, with a rod ring attached to his thumb!! Maybe I should just shut up, watch and listen. TC
The so-called 'spring' of the rod contributes, I understand, a mere 15% or so of the energy used to propel the fly line in the average cast. So, most of the angler's energy is more directly applied through the rod to the line, only a fraction is kinetic-potential-kinetic, via the limited storage potential of the blank. You can cast a line with a rigid rod, its flexibility makes it easier, but it isn't the spring of the rod that does the greater part of the work, it is the rod, dragging the fly line through the air at a high rate of knots. Then, when the rod stops, the impetus of the fly line carries it on beyond the rod tip. When the rod is stopped, the rod recovers its unflexed form, and in so doing, I am told that it contributes about 15, say 17%, of the total energy used. Not a lot, is it? Certainly not what you might expect from a spring like that of a bow stave, a catapult or an air gun coil spring.

Last edited by guest3; 15-07-2009 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 15-07-2009, 06:14 PM
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Zoomer's quote from Sportfish i believe:

"A rod is both a lever and a spring, a lever when moving and a spring when stopped" To say the rod is only a spring is stupid as it has nowhere near enough "power" as purely as a spring to shoot the line.

When everyone talks about fast/slow rods and how they bend, bearing in mind the most "powerful" rod that's capable of throwing the longest lines are going to be rods that will bend all the way into the butt but recover incredibly fast.

A very good rod will both bend well and recover very quickly. I believe there's a lot of confusion when people talk about slow/fast/stiff/soft rods etc.
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Old 15-07-2009, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scotty9 View Post
Zoomer's quote from Sportfish i believe:

"A rod is both a lever and a spring, a lever when moving and a spring when stopped" To say the rod is only a spring is stupid as it has nowhere near enough "power" as purely as a spring to shoot the line.

You have to introduce energy into the rod during the 'lever' action, so yes it's a lever, but that's then only way to load it when casting.

When everyone talks about fast/slow rods and how they bend, bearing in mind the most "powerful" rod that's capable of throwing the longest lines are going to be rods that will bend all the way into the butt but recover incredibly fast.

The point I was making. This is where the definition of 'power' comes from.

A very good rod will both bend well and recover very quickly. I believe there's a lot of confusion when people talk about slow/fast/stiff/soft rods etc.
Not sure if this makes a rod a good 'un. Light lines fished at short distance to spooky fish benefit from a nice slow and delicate delivery.

---------- Post added at 08:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:56 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by andygrey View Post
Not sure if this makes a rod a good 'un. Light lines fished at short distance to spooky fish benefit from a nice slow and delicate delivery.
Hells teeth!!

How do you quote and reply to individual bits of a post??

Apologies to Scott for 'crashing' his post in reply!

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Last edited by andygrey; 15-07-2009 at 07:59 PM. Reason: More fat fingered action!!
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Old 16-07-2009, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb View Post
Yes, I have studied this in the past and there are some very good points and observations. I have also tested many rods using the practical tests he proposed. The most important by far, as far as I'm concerned, is the frequency of the rod. This is very easily tested too (and all manufacturers should supply this information). But surprisingly what he didn’t propose (as far as I can remember) was to test the frequency of the rod with different loads applied. For me this is the number 1 test and gives us a clue to the real AFTM of the rod. The big question is (for me anyway) at what frequency is a fly rod sweet?

Anyway, a very interesting subject. Looking forward to hearing more.

Colin.
Surely that will be an individual opinion ?
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