Fly Fishing Forums
Go Back   Fly Fishing Forums > General Fly Fishing Forums > General Fly Fishing Discussion
Forums Register Blogs FAQ Members List Social Groups Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

View Poll Results: Are you prepared to take part personally in the fight against Bad Hydro
Yes and I will pm my contact details to richardw or warrenslaney 7 50.00%
No 7 50.00%
Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Share LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 24-12-2011, 03:53 PM
richardw's Avatar
Trade Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: On the banks of the Derbyshire Wye
Posts: 6,996
richardw is on a distinguished road
Default Re: The Fight against BAD HYDRO

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfish View Post
These Hydro schemes represent progress and a realistic way of meeting our energy needs without burning fosil fuels.
Honestly chickenfish they don't. Have a look here and see what the problems are. Also here...

If you look into this subject you will see what a massive problem this is across the country. Just about every river will be damaged.

richard
__________________
Who resides on the right bank of the Derbyshire Wye and is lulled to sleep each night by the mutterings of a weir, dreaming that "When the rivers and their inhabitants come first, we ALL win..."
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 24-12-2011, 04:11 PM
JeffR's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Staffs
Posts: 5,382
JeffR is on a distinguished road
Default Re: The Fight against BAD HYDRO

Genuine questions - is this campaign actually against "bad" hydro (implying there is a hydro technology/design version you prefer), or just against hydro full stop? Also, is this small scale hydro only commercially viable with subsidy, same as for PV and wind? ( i imagine so) - if so the way to kill it off is to kill off the subsidy (leaving only commercially viable, large scale, hydro as the way forward - which perhaps might be better, and also more sustainable long term as not dependent on continued subsidy)
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 24-12-2011, 04:30 PM
splashtestdummy's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: South West and South Wales
Posts: 4,233
splashtestdummy is on a distinguished road
Default Re: The Fight against BAD HYDRO

Jeff, I'd like to see the set up of the remaining ones in Sweden and understand why they were deemed to work OK; similarly, also understand why all the others didn't.

The precedent is there by the looks of it or are we going to try and reinvent the wheel in the UK?
__________________

Help fund the WTT study of the Softmouth
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 24-12-2011, 05:58 PM
JeffR's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Staffs
Posts: 5,382
JeffR is on a distinguished road
Default Re: The Fight against BAD HYDRO

Quote:
Originally Posted by splashtestdummy View Post
Jeff, I'd like to see the set up of the remaining ones in Sweden and understand why they were deemed to work OK; similarly, also understand why all the others didn't.

The precedent is there by the looks of it or are we going to try and reinvent the wheel in the UK?
Be interesting to know what the financial model behind them was too.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 24-12-2011, 06:48 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 517
ant77 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: A Swedish Tale...

Well, I've read A Christmas Carol too many times so... This is what I understand of the Swedish experience.

I'll assume all readers have no technical knowledge so apologise in advance if I'm over-explanatory. Here's the story as its been relayed to me....

Beginning around 40 years ago, the Swedish government established hydro schemes on four river systems. Two of these were suitable for low-head hydro only – i.e. the rivers have a low gradient, much like most of the rivers in our own systems that are attracting micro-hydro proposals. Of these two systems the government granted one to go ahead with mitigation measures and one entirely without ('mitigation' is where you off-set the likely environmental impact – for example by installing a fish pass). On the other two, both high-head systems, they did the same. High-head is where the water flows through a steep gradient – e.g. off a bloody great big hill – and the Swedes looked to benefit from huge snow melts from great lakes in the upper reaches of these systems. The high-head projects are still extant and can produce up to 70% of the country's electricity on demand, mitigation measures for these projects have been further developed and have been successful – the Swedish are now very hot-to-trot on their enviro-kudos. Conversely the low-head projects have been decommissioned due to the environmental damage they have caused, mitigation in place or not, coupled with their being completely financially unviable. The government has sensibly ceased all support for low-head hydro.

Present UK mitigation measures for low-head hydro touted by the EA etc take successful working examples from the Swedish high-head hydro experience which would not be replicable in the great majority of proposed UK sites as these will be based on low-head systems. An example is that of allowing a 'flushing spate' twice per year which cleans fish spawning gravels, and moves sediments trapped in the 'wrong' place by the scheme (weir, dam etc) to encourage invertebrate growth (aquatic invertebrates being the major food source for many species of fish including the Brown Trout). That's great if you've got huge lakes sitting above the scheme and can take advantage of their snow-melt but it simply doesn't cross-over to our wee rivers, save one or two in the highlands of Scotland. In the UK we simply can't generate the velocity of waters required for such action because of the shallow gradient of the rivers and even if we could it wouldn't be viable because we have very cunningly built huge swathes of houses on floodplains!

Thats it in a nutshell. I've been looking further at the complications of mitigation measures in the short film I've been making – for example, fish passes are brilliant, in theory...

If you're bored of the telly over the next few days and someone bought you Paxman's fishing anthology for the sixteenth time, here's some reading you might find useful: Hydropower Fish Passage and Fight the Hydropower! - The Angling Trust. Of course you might instead be out on the river enjoying it while it lasts.

Whatever you do DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE the impact that these schemes will have on YOUR local river. Even if you're purely Stillwater, you've got to give a damn about this. Take up Richard's poll and say 'yes'.


All the very best
Ant
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 24-12-2011, 07:24 PM
Geordietrout's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Posts: 251
Geordietrout is on a distinguished road
Default

Thanks for taking the time to write this Ant, very interesting read.
__________________
"It is not how abundant nor how considerable our catch be, but rather to the sport, and manner in which our quarry, the noble trout is angled."
http://geordietrout.blogspot.com/
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 24-12-2011, 08:21 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 517
ant77 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: The Fight against BAD HYDRO

Cheers Lylas

Great blog, keep it up! I can't believe your pictures of foam in the Ouseburn, outrageous. Lets hope the CEO of Newcastle CC isn't half the #### that the CEO of Newcastle FC is! (From one Mag to, presumably, another). Looking forward to seeing how you get on. Surely you can't have been the only one who noticed this?

Gan canny
Ant
__________________
Please petition against KI Hydro now! - http://chn.ge/Jd5EII - Thank you!
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 24-12-2011, 09:35 PM
sedgeking's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Gods county-West Yorkshire
Posts: 1,039
sedgeking is on a distinguished road
Default Re: The Fight against BAD HYDRO

Hi Guys
Hydro application is getting worse for permitting

Here is Altofts or Penbank Weir on the Yorkshire Calder.... a redundant structure that has no value for navigation NOR has historical use as a hydro (was navigation impoundment).
[IMG]Click the image to open in full size.[/IMG]

This redundant weir now HAS license for being re built.THEN to add another 480mm to the weir crest. THEN 20mm mesh. THEN 100 fish per 24hr kill rate.

Then we don't stop here now as Altofts has set precedence and has opened up a potential flood gate .......along comes the very flat, very redundant, nay almost gone Horbury Weir which is now available to be developed in a similar way....even though its plain to see it's almost a NEW BUILD.
[IMG]Click the image to open in full size.[/IMG]

One department of DEFRA says WFD requires the complete removal of obsolete structure to enable the UK to comply with WFD......then another says we will support HEP and its development without knowing its full scientific impacts and throw precautionary approach out of the window learning as we go.

The Environment Agency RECOMMEND that no new structure is built but are powerless to stop it.

I would add that both of these weirs are owned by British Waterways...the same entity that is soon to emerge as the Canal and Rivers Trust (CART)...I submit you most definitely CAN'T trust a registered charity that places financial greed before it's own charitable aims.
__________________
Two things to have in life - A good bed and a good pair of boots -and if you aren't in one you should be in t'other
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 24-12-2011, 10:58 PM
JeffR's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Staffs
Posts: 5,382
JeffR is on a distinguished road
Default Re: A Swedish Tale...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ant77 View Post
Well, I've read A Christmas Carol too many times so... This is what I understand of the Swedish experience.

I'll assume all readers have no technical knowledge so apologise in advance if I'm over-explanatory. Here's the story as its been relayed to me....

Beginning around 40 years ago, the Swedish government established hydro schemes on four river systems. Two of these were suitable for low-head hydro only – i.e. the rivers have a low gradient, much like most of the rivers in our own systems that are attracting micro-hydro proposals. Of these two systems the government granted one to go ahead with mitigation measures and one entirely without ('mitigation' is where you off-set the likely environmental impact – for example by installing a fish pass). On the other two, both high-head systems, they did the same. High-head is where the water flows through a steep gradient – e.g. off a bloody great big hill – and the Swedes looked to benefit from huge snow melts from great lakes in the upper reaches of these systems. The high-head projects are still extant and can produce up to 70% of the country's electricity on demand, mitigation measures for these projects have been further developed and have been successful – the Swedish are now very hot-to-trot on their enviro-kudos. Conversely the low-head projects have been decommissioned due to the environmental damage they have caused, mitigation in place or not, coupled with their being completely financially unviable. The government has sensibly ceased all support for low-head hydro.

Present UK mitigation measures for low-head hydro touted by the EA etc take successful working examples from the Swedish high-head hydro experience which would not be replicable in the great majority of proposed UK sites as these will be based on low-head systems. An example is that of allowing a 'flushing spate' twice per year which cleans fish spawning gravels, and moves sediments trapped in the 'wrong' place by the scheme (weir, dam etc) to encourage invertebrate growth (aquatic invertebrates being the major food source for many species of fish including the Brown Trout). That's great if you've got huge lakes sitting above the scheme and can take advantage of their snow-melt but it simply doesn't cross-over to our wee rivers, save one or two in the highlands of Scotland. In the UK we simply can't generate the velocity of waters required for such action because of the shallow gradient of the rivers and even if we could it wouldn't be viable because we have very cunningly built huge swathes of houses on floodplains!

Thats it in a nutshell. I've been looking further at the complications of mitigation measures in the short film I've been making – for example, fish passes are brilliant, in theory...

If you're bored of the telly over the next few days and someone bought you Paxman's fishing anthology for the sixteenth time, here's some reading you might find useful: Hydropower Fish Passage and Fight the Hydropower! - The Angling Trust. Of course you might instead be out on the river enjoying it while it lasts.

Whatever you do DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE the impact that these schemes will have on YOUR local river. Even if you're purely Stillwater, you've got to give a damn about this. Take up Richard's poll and say 'yes'.


All the very best
Ant
Thanks - so to summarise... in answer to my whats "bad" and what's "good" hydro, you're saying high head is basically good?...So in the UK, the campaign should be stop faffing about trying to apply high head technology to low head environments (square peg/round hole) and concentrate on high head hydro opportunities? Presumably those are also more economically attractive as produce more power. It seems to generally be the case that big public subsidies to micro renewables (of various ypes, not just hydro) don't stack up. In this case potentially damaging too, not just a waste of public funds.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 24-12-2011, 11:42 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Linlithgow, Scotland and anywhere i can wet a line!
Posts: 2,891
aenoon is on a distinguished road
Default Re: A Swedish Tale...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffR View Post
In this case potentially damaging too, not just a waste of public funds.
Sorry, but cant agree is waste of public funds.
Hydro schemes, well planned, in relation to the immediate ecosystem, are an investment worth pursuing.
We need to start investing in alternative energy sources big time.
If rebuilding, and improving defunct weirs, and indeed raising their top height, to provide sufficient head capacity is the way forward, then i am all for it, as long as properly sited, and constructed fish passes, and outflow lades, for hydro schemes are included in construction, then there aint no problem.
lets all get off the nimby approach, and think about how we can improve the development of this resource.
regards
bert
Reply With Quote
Reply





Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bad Hydro warrenslaney General Fly Fishing Discussion 47 19-01-2012 07:56 PM
Sheffield Bad Hydro Paul G General Fly Fishing Discussion 3 25-10-2011 02:45 PM
Hydro Jay, Wirksworth greyhoundgirl General Fly Fishing Discussion 5 29-12-2009 09:45 AM






All times are GMT. The time now is 02:52 AM.


Loading...
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
2006-2011 Fish&Fly Ltd