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Old 04-11-2011, 08:49 AM
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Default Help Needed to Identify This Fish

Hi all,

I would be really grateful if I could have your opinions on what this fish is (caught by me).
I have two friends, one's 100% convinced it's a Rainbow, the other's 100% convinced it's a Salmon, somone else thinks it could be a Sea Trout.

Who is right and what is the clear evidence to support it?

Thanks,

Robin.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 04-11-2011, 08:59 AM
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Default Re: Help Needed to Identify This Fish

I'm assuming it was caught in a river hence the salmon/sea trout query? It's not a rainbow but knowing where it was caught would help

Mat
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Old 04-11-2011, 09:10 AM
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Default Re: Help Needed to Identify This Fish

I'm going with sea trout. Tails not right for a salmon imo.

Chris.
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Old 04-11-2011, 09:23 AM
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Default Re: Help Needed to Identify This Fish

100% no doubt that is a farmed salmon. Eye/jaw relationship, body markings, worn tail all scream a salmon from a farm.

Bw
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Old 04-11-2011, 09:23 AM
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Default Re: Help Needed to Identify This Fish

its not in great nick, was it caught or found dead?
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Old 04-11-2011, 09:32 AM
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Default Re: Help Needed to Identify This Fish

Thanks for the reply Mat, I wanted to hold fire on saying where it was caught in order to get an unbiased view of peoples opinions based on the photo, but as you have asked....

I caught it from my local River Crane in Twickenham, Middlesex a couple of months ago. Sadly the river was destroyed by a Thames Water sewage dump at the weekend which killed all fish. When I spotted it I couldn't believe what I was seeing as I normally catch Chub and Barbel from this River.

I spotted it at the bottom of the drop side of a small weir in a 3ft deep pool which is just a few meters wide. The river drys out beyond this point to a trickle due to low levels so hence it was stuck as it couldn't go further downstream (2 miles downstream it flows into the tidal Thames at Isleworth) as there was no water and it couldn't go back up the weir as there's no pass.

I had come to the conclusion it was a Rainbow that had escaped from Syon Park fishery (a trout lake in Middlesex) as the tiny Duke of Northumberland River connects from this lake into the River Crane a few miles downstream of where I caught it, although there are metal grates to stop fish escaping from the fishery (as you'd expect) but the Duke also had a weir and is barely an inch deep in parts due to low levels so it would be amazing if it got out let alone got that far up the river.
But this would explain the "stockie" looking ragged fins.

My good friend has fly fished for many years and he is convinced it's a Trout and a Rainbow at that, on the basis that:

The maxilla extends past the eye (a Salmon does not)

There are many spots below the lateral line (a salmon does not have many spots below that lateral line)

The tail is not definitely concave (whereas a Salmon is)

The wrist is not particularly thin (a Salmon has a much thinner wrist)

It does not have a pointy head (a Salmon does)

The pink/purple lateral stripe indicates it's a Rainbow


HOWEVER, my other friend who is a very experienced fisherman says 100% it's not a Rainbow and that it's Salmon or possibly a Sea Trout, he says:

He's a male, as you can see his kype forming.

The fins, even his pecs have worn down a lot, maybe because he has been stuck in that hole for a long time and his fins have worn down or he's come from a farm.

If it was a trout, the tail would be absolutely covered in spots and the colouration is all wrong.

The fins are difficult to tell from because they are worn, but the tail is slightly concave so it is a salmon as Big sea trout will be straight or convex.

The jaw line from what i can see is also level with the rear of the eye and doesnt extend past it so would tally with a salmon

He thinks it could have got there up the Thames from the sea, either an escaped farm fish that has escaped from a cage at sea and decided to swim up the thames (the worn down fins would tally with this)

The second scenario is that it is a wild fish that has got stuck in a small pool for some time and worn down his fins that way. Considering the end of the salmon stocking program and the fact that they never bred in the Thames during this time, would make the first scenario more likely, especailly as he is still a bit silvery and not that thin from not feeding, so would have been in the river for between 1 and 3 months at a guess.

He thinks it's either a Salmon or a sea trout (probably a kelt) thats been in for quite a while. They would both run up these small streams to try and spawn.

Hence I don't know who is right? Interesting to see there a differing opinons already!



Quote:
Originally Posted by matoakwell View Post
I'm assuming it was caught in a river hence the salmon/sea trout query? It's not a rainbow but knowing where it was caught would help

Mat


---------- Post added at 10:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:29 AM ----------

by the way it was alive, I caught it on an Ondex spinner (forgive me!) after about 10 casts and a bit of coaxing it went for it.
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Old 04-11-2011, 09:40 AM
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Default Re: Help Needed to Identify This Fish

Quote:
Originally Posted by matoakwell View Post
I'm assuming it was caught in a river hence the salmon/sea trout query? It's not a rainbow but knowing where it was caught would help

Mat
Knowing where it was caught shouldn't make a difference to the i.d. A salmon is a still a salmon if its found in Africa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by christy27 View Post
I'm going with sea trout. Tails not right for a salmon imo.

Chris.
You can't reliably tell the difference between a sea trout and a salmon by looking at a picture of the tail, especially one that looks like that, if you can hold the fish and feel for the hard 'wrist' of the salmon tail then this is a good indicator.
In a photo like this the only really reliable identifier is the eye/jaw relationship, In a sea trouut the jaw extends well beyond the eye and is quite obvious when you've seen a few, but even then it can be hard to tell in a photo.
The only 100% reliable every time way of i.d. is getting a scale/flesh sample analysed.
Having said that, this picture so obviously screams farmed salmon (print out a pic and compare it to one in a supermarket) that I don't think dna sampling is quite necessary.

Bw

---------- Post added at 03:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:36 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by robv View Post
My good friend has fly fished for many years and he is convinced it's a Trout and a Rainbow at that, on the basis that:

The maxilla extends past the eye (a Salmon does not)

There are many spots below the lateral line (a salmon does not have many spots below that lateral line)

The tail is not definitely concave (whereas a Salmon is)

The wrist is not particularly thin (a Salmon has a much thinner wrist)

It does not have a pointy head (a Salmon does)

The pink/purple lateral stripe indicates it's a Rainbow


HOWEVER, my other friend who is a very experienced fisherman says 100% it's not a Rainbow and that it's Salmon or possibly a Sea Trout, he says:

He's a male, as you can see his kype forming.

The fins, even his pecs have worn down a lot, maybe because he has been stuck in that hole for a long time and his fins have worn down or he's come from a farm.

If it was a trout, the tail would be absolutely covered in spots and the colouration is all wrong.

The fins are difficult to tell from because they are worn, but the tail is slightly concave so it is a salmon as Big sea trout will be straight or convex.

The jaw line from what i can see is also level with the rear of the eye and doesnt extend past it so would tally with a salmon

He thinks it could have got there up the Thames from the sea, either an escaped farm fish that has escaped from a cage at sea and decided to swim up the thames (the worn down fins would tally with this)

The second scenario is that it is a wild fish that has got stuck in a small pool for some time and worn down his fins that way. Considering the end of the salmon stocking program and the fact that they never bred in the Thames during this time, would make the first scenario more likely, especailly as he is still a bit silvery and not that thin from not feeding, so would have been in the river for between 1 and 3 months at a guess.

He thinks it's either a Salmon or a sea trout (probably a kelt) thats been in for quite a while. They would both run up these small streams to try and spawn.

Hence I don't know who is right? Interesting to see there a differing opinons already!
I think your second friend is a lot smarter than your first friend!
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Old 04-11-2011, 09:47 AM
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Default Re: Help Needed to Identify This Fish

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogwoppit View Post
Knowing where it was caught shouldn't make a difference to the i.d.
I just thought that knowing which river it came from and hence which fish run that river would give a definate answer but now you've said farmed salmon i tend to agree.

Is there a fishery close that stocks salmon?

Mat
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Old 04-11-2011, 09:48 AM
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Default Re: Help Needed to Identify This Fish

If this helps, this is the only other photo I have of it, it was 5lb 12oz.

I'm fascinated by all your opinions, please keep them coming
Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 04-11-2011, 09:49 AM
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Default Re: Help Needed to Identify This Fish

If you had scales sending them here would have got you an answer.

Institute of Aquaculture: Stirling Aquaculture: Contact

Emailing them the picture might be an idea.

The club I was president of use them quite a lot and they are quite happy to help if they can.
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