The Blue Dun?

[myotis]

Is there a "correct" colour for the hackle of a dry blue dun?

My memory of the dry fly in the 60's and 70's in Scotland was of a pale blue grey hackle and the overall feel of the fly was that it was a light coloured greyish fly, with a hint of blue.

But the blue duns I have seen in shops recently and the blue dun hackles that I have seen for sale are much darker and distinctly blue. Maybe there were/are regional differences that have been lost through modern mail order/bulk production fly sales

I have a nostalgic reason for wanting to use blue duns, but as I was looking at possibly buying a blue dun cape, I realised that if I tied what seemed to be a modern blue dun, it wasn't going to be the fly I remember even if it was the name I remember.

The reasons are explained here fly choice challenge ?

I actually have no qualms about seeking out a pale blue dun cape, and if forced to put a name to "my" fly, calling it a "pale" blue dun but still interested in any observations about the recent history of the blue dun.

Thanks,

Graham

[g bigtrout]

You are going to have me at it too Graham,....my old fella told me the hackles in ones he tied were pigeon hackles.Well in the days my pops was tying there were plenty of pigeon sheds round the streets were we lived, you dont see them now though.Maybe thats were original hackles came from?...i think i would need another chat with my old pops on the subject.Funny when a friend of mine took up fly tying and produced blue dun hackles my pops said they were rubbish...he said they were too stiff and too dark and to be honest didnt work as well as ones he used.Anyhow ill have a chat with him on the pigeon thing and ill let you know.He also never had a fly with wings on his flies either as he always said they were for show rather than being of any importance,...well that was just my old pops opinion on flies and he would still rubbish flies i tye today,..jasus you should here him go off when i show him patterns i copied from books saying rubbish son a load of nonsense and he thinks comedians wrote most the fly books around today, and as for the mags:rolleyes dont even go there with my pops.

[myotis]

Originally Posted by g bigtrout

You are going to have me at it too Graham,....my old fella told me the hackles in ones he tied were pigeon hackles....

...He also never had a fly with wings on his flies either as he always said they were for show rather than being of any importance,...well that was just my old pops opinion on flies...

Were the pigeon hackles for dry blue duns, for in t'other thread you talked about wet blue duns

I suspect that until some one wrote it down, people used what they had available, and that what was available changed with location and time of year, but pigeon hackles are an interesting idea.

And this may come as no surprise, but my Grampa used to say the same thing about wings on flies as your Pops.

Graham

[g bigtrout]

Originally Posted by myotis

Were the pigeon hackles for dry blue duns, for in t'other thread you talked about wet blue duns

I suspect that until some one wrote it down, people used what they had available, and that what was available changed with location and time of year, but pigeon hackles are an interesting idea.

And this may come as no surprise, but my Grampa used to say the same thing about wings on flies as your Pops.

Graham

I suppose in sight of it the blue duns pops and i used were tied on small 16 hooks and we were using leader material that didnt sink either so we fished them as dries....i think pics i have on here may be a bit poor on ones we used as i ran out of the original hackles.Maybe this pic would be more in line as it used as a dry.

[myotis]

Originally Posted by g bigtrout

I suppose in sight of it the blue duns pops and i used were tied on small 16 hooks and we were using leader material that didnt sink either so we fished them as dries....i think pics i have on here may be a bit poor on ones we used as i ran out of the original hackles.Maybe this pic would be more in line as it used as a dry.

Certainly much closer to the colouring, and if anything a bit too pale, but its difficult to tell on the computer screen.

Is this wood pigeon?

Graham

[g bigtrout]

Not sure which pigeon pops got them from, as i said ill have to enquire now that you have brought the subject up.I am all out of his hackles but some were indeed of an iron blue colour as you see in this pic.


Prob wont see my old fella till during the week, but ill get back to you on the subject.

[myotis]

Originally Posted by g bigtrout

Not sure which pigeon pops got them from, as i said ill have to enquire now that you have brought the subject up.I am all out of his hackles but some were indeed of an iron blue colour ...

Prob wont see my old fella till during the week, but ill get back to you on the subject.

Meanwhile I am trying to get hold of a woodpigeon

Graham

[bbamboo]

Blue dun hackle

Size 16
yellow thread rabbit blue underfur.
Hackle from a wood pigeon
Stewart style hackle for top dropper work or used as a single fly damp.





Interestingly Pigeon was not used a great deal buy the old masters it was thought to be a gummy a hackle of little use.

Henry Wade who fished the Tees and Wear in north east england had the following pattern to his credit
c1861

Little blue bloa
Wings Pigeon
Body water rat or mole fur.


Another John Jackson 1854

Pigeon Blue Bloa

Wings pigeon
Body Brimstone flame coloured silk
Legs Yellowish dun
Tail two strands of yellow dun

When producing a Blue dun the common conception was to match body shade and hackle
Light blue body like rabbit underfur goes together with a light blue hackle.
A darker body like mole would be used with waterhen.
It’s still a very useful fly and would often contain a mix of yellow in the body dubbing
The Blue Dun comes in all forms of colour shapes and sizes, winged,hackled wet and dry patterns.
The darker version represented the Large Dark olives or Iron Blue duns.
lighter shades of blue dun for pale wateries.
Can be traced back to at least the days of Charles Cotton.
For use mainly as a river fly (Recommended)

Gary (nicho)

Bamboo rod maker

[myotis]

Gary,

Originally Posted by bbamboo

Blue dun hackle
Interestingly Pigeon was not used a great deal buy the old masters it was thought to be a gummy a hackle of little use.

Thanks for this, and very interesting.

Tom Stewart in "Fifty popular flies" from 1962 mentions that a sit was pattern used by Charles Cotton 300 years ago that it has run a gauntlet of variation. He doesn't mention woodpigeon mind you, but he does suggest an option of using a pale greenwell type hackle instead of a blue dun hackle.

Graham

[bbamboo]

Originally Posted by myotis

Gary,



Thanks for this, and very interesting.

Tom Stewart in "Fifty popular flies" from 1962 mentions that a sit was pattern used by Charles Cotton 300 years ago that it has run a gauntlet of variation. He doesn't mention woodpigeon mind you, but he does suggest an option of using a pale greenwell type hackle instead of a blue dun hackle.

Graham

Hi Graham

Regarding the Greenwell’s hackle that idea came from T.K Wilson
From the days of the old fishing gazette.
He stated both hackle could be interchanged on the Greenwell’s and the Blue dun as they represent the same list of flies. Without any detrimental effect on either one.
Probably came about from the lack of Greenwells capes at the time.

Gary (nicho)

Bamboo Rod Maker