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Old 08-12-2006, 08:32 AM
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Default Advice on tying Spiders

Since I tied my first fly, a black and peacock, I haven't really tied any spiders, but my attention has been drawn back to them. Probably because of their simplicity (a hook, some feathers and some thread, and you have a fly).
I have been looking back at my first attempts and realize that the heads on them are way to large, the hackles look a bit pants, but it was my first fly so hey ho.
So I am going to visit my tackle pimp again on the way back home from work, to buy some more stuff.
I am thinking about some orange and yellow thread, some hooks, and some partridge feather (quite like the look of partridge and orange and partridge and yellow).
So I have a few questions.

1) Would I just follow these instructions substituting materials where I need to
One for beginners

2) Any hot tips about easy mistakes to make and how to avoid them (ie too many wraps about the head, hackles too long/short etc.)

3)Whilst I am buying the above bits, any recommandations for other bits and pieces to buy (ie any fesathers/hackles that are used in a lot of spiders that are worth buying)

4) A question about fishing them. I understand the soft hackles move really well under water, and may imitate a drowning insect etc. Is this why they are fished wet and not too deep (ie I don't see any with weighted bodies, gold bead heads etc.) (or indeed do you get bead head versions that I haven't seen??)

Cheers for any/all advice given.

Dom
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Old 08-12-2006, 09:06 AM
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When tying spiders using game bird hackles Dom,you tie the hackle in by the tip as shown here .....
Endrick Spider

If you want a slimmer/lighter looking fly strip the barbs from one side of the hackle, so that you are in effect tying half a hackle. Don't overdress your spiders, and when you tie the hackle off don't make any wraps over the hackle. You will only add bulk and destroy the action of the hackle.
For bodies use mole or other fine furs and touch dub as shown in the dubbing techniques thread.
You can use any game bird hackle, Grouse, Partridge, Woodcock,Moorhen, Snipe, etc.
If you want to tie some "authentic" spiders you will need to buy some Pearsall's silks....
http://www.lakelandflytying.com/Sear...CategoryID=153
I would suggest, for starters, Black,Orange,Yellow and Purple. You will also need some beeswax (or flyters wax) and cobblers wax for the threads, cobblers wax is a dark brown colour and is essential if you want to get the threads the correct shade.

To keep the head bulk down, when you start the fly leave about three wraps worth of hook shank bare at the eye, use this space to form the head.

To fish spiders ...... ask the spider experts
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Old 08-12-2006, 08:11 PM
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Dom
Less is definately more when tying spiders
I have learned from experience and from practice that if you over do the hackle or the body the spiders dont perform as well.
1-1 1/2 turns of hackle are more than sufficient on most patterns and as MP says 6mm back from the start is probably enough.
www.spidersplus.co.uk has some useful info that might be useful.
Hope this helps
Gary
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Old 08-12-2006, 08:13 PM
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I'll suggest an Email to Phil at SpidersPlus, he'll be able to help you out!

Yaffle
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Old 08-12-2006, 09:56 PM
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The hackle should be like the spokes of an umbrella, not like a grass skirt as many cheap ones are. This gives movement in the water.
In the case of Partridge & Orange, it can be difficult to find feathers ( which should be only the speckled brown ones) which are small enough for anything less then size 14.
Look at the pics on my web site if you like
http://sunland92.fsnet.co.uk/spiders.htm
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Old 09-12-2006, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
In the case of Partridge & Orange, it can be difficult to find feathers ( which should be only the speckled brown ones) which are small enough for anything less then size 14.
i got a nice skin from cookshill for this very job. seems to have a good few really small feathers. they get difficult to tie with tho when reallty small.

Snipe rump feathers are a good buy for really small spiders.
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Old 10-12-2006, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryC
Dom
Less is definately more when tying spiders
I have learned from experience and from practice that if you over do the hackle or the body the spiders dont perform as well.
1-1 1/2 turns of hackle are more than sufficient on most patterns and as MP says 6mm back from the start is probably enough.
www.spidersplus.co.uk has some useful info that might be useful.
Hope this helps
Gary
Interesting this. In his video/DVD (though not, notably, in John Roberts's book 'The World's Best Trout Flies') Oliver Edwards - a devotee of Edmonds and Lee - makes reference to the 'one to one-and-a-half turns' thing as over-stated. He also suggests that Pearsall's 6a is now a different shade than of yore.

In any event, Scotfly's advice is difficult to fault.
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Old 10-12-2006, 08:27 PM
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Against my better judgement, but I hate to see people struggling with relatively simple problems.

Yesterday evening, ( not true now, I wrote this a while ago in answer to a post on another board),I had a gentleman round, who wanted to learn to dress some simple soft hackles, and was in the meantime of the opinion that they were perhaps not quite so "simple" after all!

He had bought a lot of very good stuff, read a few books, etc etc. But he was having trouble getting his spiders ( Soft hackles) to look right.

His main problem was over hackling. He had followed various instructions, heard strict admonitions to only "use one turn", or "one and half turns at most", seen various videos, and been on the web quite a lot as well, but none of the techniques he had seen had produced the required result.

This is not the first time I have had people with such a problem. The answer is very mundane, and quite simple. If you want sparse hackles then only tie in hackles with a few barbs!

If you strip all the barbs off a soft hackle feather, except the eight or so you want to be there, then it is quite impossible to over hackle the fly! Nobody is tempted to wind in empty hackle stem, and so this is not a problem either.

It does not really matter what technique you use, although in order to get a concentric hackle on some flies, you may have to strip one side of the feather, depending on the feather, and the hook size you are using etc. This is because the distance between the barbs is different on various feathers.

In many of the older books, one was advised to "make an extra turn" when using hen hackles. This is because many hen hackles are very thin and "wispy", and are not really suited for dressing sparse spiders. One may however select for thick webby feathers when buying these. Although they are often difficult to find. There are some genetic hen hackles available which are suitable, namely "Brahma" hen hackles from Whiting, and one or two others, but most are not. Ordinary free range barnyard chicken hackles tend to be best. hackles from "industrial" chickens are often more or less useless.

His objection to "wasting" hackle, as a result of stripping fibres, is not a valid argument. There is no point in dressing poor flies in order not to "waste" hackle. Putting two or three turns of hackle on a spider results in a poor fly. IF ONE USES HACKLE STEM WITH ALL THE BARBS!

Of course, such sparse hackles get torn up quickly by the fish, but not least because one catches more fish on them!

Trying to dress several flies from one soft hackle feather, ( genetic hen, and one or two other things excepted), is false economy, and will merely make things difficult.

It can be done of course, nothing is impossible, but it is rarely a good idea, unless you are using fibre bunches from a feather. When winding hackle, prepare it properly before you tie it in. This makes the job a lot easier, and the flies a lot better!

It also obviates the need to remove any excess after you have wound what you need. If you have prepared the feather properly, there is no excess! This tends to make neater and more consistent flies as well.

Should all else fail, then COUNT THE FIBRES! It is no problem at all to count eight fibres on one side of a stripped feather, or indeed count four on each side! Of course, you may use ten or a dozen if you wish, and it suits you. Trout canīt count anyway.

They are however able to distinguish between "enough" and "too much", this is borne out by their well known propensity for ignoring or refusing over hackled flies.

Counting the fibres also completely obviates any problems with "turns" of hackle, or how to apply "half a turn".

This is a nonsense anyway, as there is no way of knowing how many barbs there might be in a "turn" of any particular hackle, dependent as this is on barb spacing which varies from feather to feather, the diameter of the stem, and the diameter of whatever one happens to be winding it around.

As many others have also unsuccessfully tried to point out on occasion, there is no way to apply "half a turn" of hackle, without ending up with a completely unbalanced fly.

With regard to fishing spiders, you may find this useful;
http://www.flyanglersonline.com/feat...dff/part4.html

People also dress spiders etc with weight, gold heads, and what have you. These will catch fish, but are often less successful than the originals when fished properly. There is no harm in experimenting of course.

There are occasions when weighted flies are required for certain techniques.

TL
MC

Last edited by Upstream Spider; 10-12-2006 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 10-12-2006, 08:46 PM
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Thanks Mike, often simple solutions are overlooked because people can't see wood for trees, so to speak.

This is a problem I have struggled with myself, so thanks for the comprehensive answer.

Spiders of one sort or another are seldom off my cast when fishing stillwaters. Sometimes they work well, sometimes not. Puzzling out why makes life interesting.

Thanks again


Steve
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Old 10-12-2006, 08:54 PM
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My pleasure. For more comprehensive info, you might like to try these;

http://www.dtnicolson.dial.pipex.com/

http://flytyingworld.proboards62.com/index.cgi

http://flytyingworld.proboards62.com...ead=1144157533

http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=513303

With regard to weight;
http://www.sexyloops.co.uk/cgi-bin/t...=7;t=2943;st=0

TL
MC

Last edited by Upstream Spider; 10-12-2006 at 09:12 PM.
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