The Cardinal

[Former member]

I am trying to get a bit more info on the above named fly, dressing, history etc. I have dressing for Silver Cardinal and the Cardineal but trying to get the history and dressing for the original.
Thanx in adavance.
Gerry

[hobble]

tail, RED IBIS,

body, RED FLOSS SILK,

rib, FINE GOLD WIRE,

hackle,, WHITE COCK DYED SAME COLOUR AS WINGS,

wings, DYED RED SWAN, IBIS, OR DUCK.

[seanie]

Here you go Gerry


FlyTyingForum.com - Cardinal

[sonnaghan]

Remember it became popular around Melvin when there was a new Cardinal appointed Cardinal O'Fee (or Fiach) about 30 years ago. One of his great claims to fame was that he refused to meet Maggie for Dinner. Almost certainly represents a fly tied to celebrate the arrival of a new Catholic Cardinal--to be truthful not a lot different from a Grenadier. There are 2 tyings given for it in Leonards book published in 1960 and in Veniards 1968 edition it is also present: the dressing as described previously.
There you are now. ABSOLUTELY USELESS BIT OF BANTER

[Former member]

Originally Posted by sonnaghan

Remember it became popular around Melvin when there was a new Cardinal appointed Cardinal O'Fee (or Fiach) about 30 years ago. One of his great claims to fame was that he refused to meet Maggie for Dinner. Almost certainly represents a fly tied to celebrate the arrival of a new Catholic Cardinal--to be truthful not a lot different from a Grenadier. There are 2 tyings given for it in Leonards book published in 1960 and in Veniards 1968 edition it is also present: the dressing as described previously.
There you are now. ABSOLUTELY USELESS BIT OF BANTER

Thanks for the replies, dressing was as I thought.
Cheers
Guys

PS. Sonnaghan I cant see the connection with a Grenadier, no comparison unless I am missing something

[Chris Reeves]

I am hunting for my copy of Mary Orvis Marbury's "Favourite flies " as I'm pretty sure the Cardinal is in there and this will pre date the Cardinal mentioned by some 30 years

Watch this space.

Cheers

[shpeil]

I'm sure it featured in one of the trout mags maybe, oh, aroundabout autumn last year. From recollection, they seemed to think it was US origin. I could be completely wrong about this!!

[sonnaghan]

Gerry realised this am that I had made a mistake. Not the grenadier rather the soldier palmer. It does seem to be of N American origin that book I quoted Leonard is an old American book and some where I read it may have come from NE USA

[Former member]

Originally Posted by sonnaghan

Gerry realised this am that I had made a mistake. Not the grenadier rather the soldier palmer. It does seem to be of N American origin that book I quoted Leonard is an old American book and some where I read it may have come from NE USA

Have heard it originated in USA or Canada, seems to have been around for a while but not a lot of info on it.
Cheers
Gerry

[midlander]

According to Ray Bergman's "Trout", originally published in 1938 the pattern is as follows:

Body: White chenille.
Hackle: White (probably cock).
Wing: Cardinal (probably duck or goose depending on size).

Bergman comments that it's an effective Brook Trout pattern.

The all red pattern that is noted as "Cardinal" in Veniard's "Fly Dressers Guide" (1954) is named as the Scarlet Ibis in "Trout". The dressing (in Trout) is as follows:

Tail: Scarlet (probably duck or indeed ibis).
Tag: Gold tinsel (flat).
Body: Scarlet floss.
Rib: Gold tinsel (flat).
Hackle: Scarlet (probably cock).
Wing: Scarlet ( probably duck, goose or ibis).

So, who's right? Given that Bergman was a very well respected US wet fisherman and given his book pre-dates Veniard's I'd go with his pattern. However, his dressing of a Watson's Fancy shows the red half at the front of the body while the modern, and Veniards, concept of the pattern has the red at the tail. Again, I'd go with Bergman as to me (purely subjective) a red front half makes more sense.. Also, I've noticed a few instances in Veniard where the given pattern doesn't completely match the corresponding picture.

Your best bet Gerry would be to go to the US based Classic Fly Tying Forum and ask someone like Don Bastian, he's a Bergman nut. You'll likely get good answers from the likes of Ted Patlen or one of the admins called Isonychia.