Spider question

[christy27]

I am going to tie some spiders ready for next year. Not tied any for a while. The reason being I decided to look a bit deeper into it. I'm not really happy with the typical sparsely dressed versions that seem to be the norm these days.

My question is do any of you prefer a heavier dressed spider?

I've been looking in 'Two centuries of Soft Hackled Flies' by Sylvester Nemes (amongst others) and noticed a tendancy towards heavier dressings, much more hackle.

Someone suggested sparse dressings quickly end up with the hackle wrapped around the hook shank, loosing all signs of life. Sounds logical to me. Another I heard was sparse tyings get mauled by trout and quickly need changing. Again I can relate to that. Adding a little cock hackle to the mix is one solution I came across.

So anyone for more hackle?

Oh nearly forgot...'Jim Wynn's Recommended Flies for the River Wharfe' an interesting read. Mr Wynn liked to add tinsel to the back end of traditional patterns to enhance and update a little. Considering the yards of modern materials available to us today how do you feel about adding a little twist so to speak?

If the old tyers were around today surely they would take advantage of what's on offer?

Very interested in all comments...

Chris.

[Scotty Mitchell]

Not been at the spidering long enough to talk from experience, but i know an experienced river angler who has a touch of flash in almost every pattern, and he catches plenty fish.
My thinking so far with the hackle has been to overdress, believing that the fly will be effective longer. I cant say iv noticed whether a fuller dressed pattern catches more or less than a sparser one.
Scotty

[shuck raider]

What worked for Syl Nemes in Montana won't necessarily work in GB. Although he was introduced to 'soft-hackles' in Hampshire when stationed there during WW2, he took them back to USA after the war and quite rightly (and very successfully) modified the style to suit his home waters.

Perhaps a good way of looking at the style for fishing here is 'if it ain't busted, don't fix it.'

Trad seems to have worked OK here for centuries

[Spider]

Christy I wouldnt go for a heavier hackle. It goes against the general grain of advice re these lovely flies. If you are worried about sparseness, do yourself a favour. Next time out , catch an olive in your hand. If the poor chap is a bit mushed, get a sparse olive spider pattern and wet it and put it on your hand beside the deceased flea. You'll see what i mean....two turns of hackle is all you need , honest, although i do like a thorax too. In fairness, i havent fished spiders really in rivers, but found them lethal on a 4 acre stillwater. I have recently bought one of those rods that can be extended in length ( Hends ) and will be using them more next year. My top 3 on Stillwater were

- Snipe and Yellow
- Hares Lug and Plover
- Snipe and Black ( with a peacock thorax )

They are probably the most beautiful flies around IMO.

[flyfishwithme]

I am sure that you will get many answers on these questions. But this might help.
There are a couple of things about your observations.
It has been the norm for over a century now that the accepted hackling on 'North Country Flies (spiders are really those tied by Stewart and over time all sparse hackled flies have been grouped erroneously as 'spiders' so I am going tp refer to them as 'North Country Flies from which Clyde Style flies were developed) was no more than 2 and half turns. This light hackling was intentional in the design of them over 200 hundred years ago. If you are ever fortunate to see some of those flies (I even have some) you are likely to find that the hackle turns vary between flies and even within patterns. But 2-3 turns is all that is needed.
A heavier dressed North Country Fly does work, and IN have even experimented to see if there was any dis-advantage or advantage and experience seems to suggest that a light dressed fly works better IF FISHED CORRECTLY.
Now when you look a American dress 'soft hackles' they are dressed heavier and they are not North Country Flies or spiders as you call them. Generally American Soft Hackle are over hackled when compared to traditional North Country Flies. That is not to say they are wrong, they have been tied differently.
Who ever told you that hackles get twisted around the hook shank must either have a incorrectly tied fly or they are looking at it when it is extracted from the water at which time it is likely to look like a nymph. That is normal. What happens as you fish them is somewhat different. For example look at this:

Again, it is how you fish the flies that imparts action into the flies and moves the hackles.
Jim Wynn was a great River Keeper on the Wharfe and he was incredibly innovative especially as he had access to more modes materials. A bit of flash does work, especially on grayling - for example look at the "The Priest"
which has a silver mylar body.
I can tell you from experience that a traditional North Country Fly will catch as many fish as any other fly and fished in certain ways will out fish all of them. These old traditional flies are killers. They have just gone out of vogue.
By all means experiment and work out what you think.

[Spider]

Phil

I'm going to have to organise a brief holiday with family to yorkshire next year and make sure we're based nearby so i can spend some time on the water with you! I even have the longer rod now!

[dartmoor navigator]

Although new to fishing spiders, some of mibne have taken a real battering this year from trout. The sparser and more battered the more it gets taken.

[christy27]

Mmm interesting. Thanks for the replies so far. Thanks for the diagram Phil, explains a lot. I'm not suggesting more hackle to be better just fishing for everyone elses thoughts and experiences.

I notice Spiders mention of a longer rod. How long and what weight do you prefer and maybe you and Phil would like to say why?

Chris.

[Spider]

Christy, i think the idea in general is to keep your line off the water in so far as possible ( perhaps like French/Spanish nymphing ? ) , to prevent drag. I know you can do it quite well with a 9ft rod but most say 10ft - presume its for control?

[bbamboo]

Most subsurface fishing with the spider should nearly always be carried out with very sparsely tied flies. But however yes there is a very important place for spiders carrying more plumage but not in the standard role of fishing them.
A spider dressed slightly more fuller in hackle makes a superb damp pattern to fish trapped in the surface film.
If you subscribe to this role you can always transfer your flies to the standard wet fly box when you have used them a few times there for your spider address a double role.

Its always assumed the old patterns were dressed super sparse when in fact a visible inspection of many of the old flies reveals otherwise. It was often taken to absurd levels like stripping one side of the hackle before commencing tying. The truth is if you over do things the patterns are less effective but in most cases nothing a couple of sharp teethed trout wont put too right.

gary

Nicho Bamboo Rod Co