Can anyone help we out with the ID of the following flies I think they are of a Small Dark Olive? Having read Goddard's Trout Fly recognition & his Waterside Guide I have come to the conclusion that they are (top photo) Female Dark Olive Dun going on the fact that she is very small, has two tails gray, Black eyes & pale olive yellow legs and the bottom photo is of a Male Dark Olive Spinner given that he is small has orange red eyes.

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Surely the first is a female 'pale watery'? Can't say which as definition features are unclear after enlargment.

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Save the softmouth trout

That was my first thought but having seen the black eyes?. Goddard does go on to say that the two flies Small Dark Olive and the Pale Watery are difficult to tell apart.

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Your judged on your actions not your intentions, you may have a heart of gold but so does a hard boiled egg

How many tails does the second one have? Hard to tell but it looks like 3.

Yes - male Sherry Spinner that one. Serratella ignita.

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Save the softmouth trout

Please forgive my 'thickyness' but that is the spinner of which? Small Dark Olive?

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Depends if he has 3 tails? Re-looked at the image and it could be argued that the 'third' tail is just a shadow.

Clwydspecial posted some interesting stuff here last year, and the Clwyd and Elwy have some interesting and special fly species. Prompting this thread which the late Whingeing Pom, and some others, posted on: Pale Watery Male Spinner Shame the photobucket database wasn't maintained though.

I was going to make the point that this Entomology Forum has a better photographic database than can be found in any one book, although Goddard's is good. Search out the threads with hind wing shape, and where to look for the tiny ones, as well as forewing veining. Colours can also vary so much from river to river, or even just from the time of hatching (duns darkening) to rely on any one book.

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Save the softmouth trout

It's quite difficult for a 'layman' to follow at times. We have the Latin, the common and then the 'anglers' terms for the flies which may group several together (eg Pale Watery). When we say 'Sherry Spinner' is that normally the small dark olive, or is it applicable to and small / medium spinner of a red / brown colour?

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Sorry. The sherry spinner has 3 tails. Dun is the B.W.O Serratella ignita. Older books will state Ephemerella ignita, but the B.W.O had to be reclassified (about 1997) into the new Genus following DNA grouping.

The only remaining Ephemerella Genus member in this country is E. notata (Yellow Evening Spinner) which is very localized but are found on the Clwyd.

True Olives have 2 tails only and are in the Baetidae Family. The Latin names are meant to prevent confusion.

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Save the softmouth trout

Thanks, that has sorted a couple of rules of the 'game' out for me

So I am clear then (and from what you are saying) the BWO is not a true olive???

It takes time, but bit by bit I shall have this sorted in my mind.

---------- Post added at 11:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:53 AM ----------

Is it possible to bookmark these fora? It would be a helpful function.

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Time is a stream I go fishing in.