Fly Fishing Forums
Go Back   Fly Fishing Forums > Casting Talk and Fishing Knots > Casting
Forums Register Blogs FAQ Members List Social Groups Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Share LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 20-01-2012, 06:59 PM
James9118's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 970
James9118 is on a distinguished road
Default Simple Harmonic Motion

***For casting geeks only***

Simple harmonic motion has been mentioned in the 'what makes a fast rod fast' and the 'why is fast better than slow' threads (and not just be me ). I therefore thought I'd try and explain how SHM may (note the 'may' there) influence the loading/unloading of the rod and the line speed.

This is obviously taking this board into 'Sexyloops' territory and I should point out that there are plenty of people over there that think this concept is utter tosh!

In order to make the maths easier the problem is simplified to a mass (equivalent to the fly-line) being towed by a spring (to represent the flexible rod) which is driven by a car that can be linearly accelerated or decelerated (representing the casters input). This then results in a differential equation that can be solved for mass position, mass velocity, mass acceleration etc.

Now, you can drive massive holes through this if you want to, and I'll do my best to point out some of the inadequacies as I go, but try and suspend your disbelief that fly casting can be represented in such a manner .

Firstly, let's assume that the spring (rod) is very stiff. Hopefully simple logic will tell you that if the spring doesn't extend at all, then the mass will move in a way that reflects the drive (the car, or the caster), as it is connected with a rigid connection. The model (the solution to the differential equation) shows this:

Click the image to open in full size.

This chart shows velocity (vertical) versus time (horizontal). The black line shows the drive linearly accelerating up to just over 16 m/s, followed by a stop at about 0.35 seconds and then a period of deceleration (that the velocity doesn't get back to zero doesn't matter - if I ran the calculation for longer it would obviously get there). The red line shows the calculated velocity of the mass. You can't see this because it sits exactly underneath the black line - as logic says it should (it is connected rigidly after all). [I should also point out that the drive accel/decel is variable and can be changed, the values selected reflect those measured from a real cast].

If the rigid connection is replaced by a 'springy' one then the answer gets a lot more interesting. This chart uses exactly the same drive profile (in black) as the one above:

Click the image to open in full size.

It's clear from this chart that the model predicts the mass will attain a velocity in excess of that achieved by the drive. This is a obviously a good thing as far as fly-casting goes, and maybe explains why we want the rod to bend during casting.

Another point of interest in this result is the time at which the mass velocity exceeds the drive velocity - this happens before the stop . This obviously isn't the point at which the mass overtakes the drive, merely the point at which it starts catching it up. The equivalent in the fly cast would be the point at which the rod-tip, instead of bending more, first starts to straighten.

Ok, so if bendy rods are good why not make them very bendy? What the model allows is for the 'springyness' to be specified. This is called the spring constant or k in technical terms. Now here lies a significant issue in that (at the moment) k is entered as a constant. In a fishing rod this is not the case - the rod gets stiffer the more it bends therefore k isn't a constant, it increases with load (because of the taper of the rod).

Ignoring that fact, if you calculate maximum (mass) velocity as a function of k you get this:

Click the image to open in full size.

Again this is calculated with the same drive as above. The red line shows the maximum velocity of the drive, the same 16+ m/s as before. The blue line is the maximum velocity of the mass. Low k values (to the left) means the spring (rod) is very bendy (think limp spaghetti on the extreme left), and high values mean it is stiff (think telegraph pole on the extreme right).

What is of interest is the k values where the maximum (mass) velocity exceeds that of the drive i.e. not too bendy nor too stiff

Note this result is for the drive conditions specified. The curve will move if the drive is changed, and thus the k values that produce high velocities will also change slightly (hopefully you can see the logic in this also).

I'll get my anorak and go...

Last edited by James9118; 21-01-2012 at 11:27 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 20-01-2012, 07:50 PM
11foot5's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 248
11foot5 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Simple Harmonic Motion

Simple enough if you have "A" level maths......but debateable!! Can't be bothered right now, but some good theory in there...
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 20-01-2012, 07:59 PM
roll cast's Avatar
Member

 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 2,296
roll cast is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Simple Harmonic Motion

OMG its Physics and Maths invading my wee bubble from school work.


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 20-01-2012, 08:30 PM
roll cast's Avatar
Member

 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 2,296
roll cast is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Simple Harmonic Motion

Ok I'll be serious this time

Is the best spring constant somewhere around 1 going by the second graph as its the highest peak?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 20-01-2012, 08:38 PM
Frank's Avatar
Pro Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Fishing on the Monnow, Usk and Wye
Posts: 1,722
Frank is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Simple Harmonic Motion

Quote:
Originally Posted by James9118 View Post

Another point of interest in this result is the time at which the mass velocity exceeds the drive velocity - this happens before the stop . This obviously isn't the point at which the mass overtakes the drive, merely the point at which it starts catching it up. The equivalent in the fly cast would be the point at which the rod-tip, instead of bending more, first starts to straighten.

Its late and I have drunk "some", certainly too much work through your whole post, but on a first read through, the quote above suggests that the PE in the rod adds little or nothing to the KE of the line. Am I interpreting this correctly?

Sorry I don't even have GCSE maths

Frank
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 20-01-2012, 09:08 PM
James9118's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 970
James9118 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Simple Harmonic Motion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post
the quote above suggests that the PE in the rod adds little or nothing to the KE of the line. Am I interpreting this correctly?
Hi Frank,

No. The results suggest that increased line speed results from having a bendy rod, so you are getting a return on your PE. Conventional thinking is that you load up the rod, then stop it and then you get the return. This model implies that this is not the case, you get the return at a time based on the frequency of the rod. The frequency, in turn, will depend on the stiffness (k factor).

The velocity from the direct drive is 16.5 m/s
The velocity with the spring is 23.2 m/s, an increase of 6.7 m/s

KE is proportional to v squared, therefore the predicted result results in a 85% leverage : 15% spring relationship. This ties in with other researchers findings (or there abouts).

Last edited by James9118; 20-01-2012 at 09:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 21-01-2012, 12:44 AM
James9118's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 970
James9118 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Simple Harmonic Motion

Quote:
Originally Posted by roll cast View Post
Is the best spring constant somewhere around 1 going by the second graph as its the highest peak?
Sorry RC - I missed your question. The answer is yes, and no . The results are specific to the drive conditions entered, thus if your cast doesn't match the one entered then the k value may not be optimum.

What I will say is, and I've not made any measurements, I'd expect that fishing rods would have a k value that was sat somewhere within the first peak of chart 3. The single k value being calculated from the rods displacement with a mass equivalent to 30ft of the prescribed line rating.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 21-01-2012, 10:35 AM
vgb vgb is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,060
vgb is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Simple Harmonic Motion

Its based on good sound physics and does what it says on the tin. I suspect that the detractors on sexyloops want something that has a high fidelity. How are you at finite element modelling?
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 21-01-2012, 12:32 PM
roll cast's Avatar
Member

 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 2,296
roll cast is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Simple Harmonic Motion

Quote:
Originally Posted by James9118 View Post
Sorry RC - I missed your question. The answer is yes, and no . The results are specific to the drive conditions entered, thus if your cast doesn't match the one entered then the k value may not be optimum.

What I will say is, and I've not made any measurements, I'd expect that fishing rods would have a k value that was sat somewhere within the first peak of chart 3. The single k value being calculated from the rods displacement with a mass equivalent to 30ft of the prescribed line rating.
Does the SHM shown by the third graph stay the same shape if you increase the Max velocity of the drive or does the amplitude increase?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 22-01-2012, 07:29 PM
Frank's Avatar
Pro Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Fishing on the Monnow, Usk and Wye
Posts: 1,722
Frank is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Simple Harmonic Motion

James, good explanation. Just to see if we can stimulate discussion...
In your model the drive, direction of the spring unloading and the direction that the mass is traveling are all the same.

In a fly cast the rod's tip does not unload in the direction that the line is travelling due to the rod tip path not being perfectly straight but instead being slightly concave at the end. So the amount of extra velocity caused by the rod tip would be lower in a real cast than is shown in the second graph. The difference between actual and predicted would vary dependant on the skill of the caster.

Frank
Reply With Quote
Reply





Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Jan Tvrdek Rotary Vice Harmonic Simmo Fly Tying Forum 2 17-01-2012 04:54 PM
w reg v6 4 motion 4wd 2.8 top spec passat EbayUK 4wd vehicles for sale 0 19-12-2011 02:40 AM
Remedies for motion Andreww General Fly Fishing Discussion 3 02-06-2010 12:36 PM
Fishers motion REIDY10_0 Tackle Talk 7 19-12-2007 12:32 PM
Rotary Vise Harmonic JanS Other Fishing Equipment/Clothing/Books/DVD's etc. 2 15-07-2007 05:06 PM






All times are GMT. The time now is 09:25 PM.


Loading...
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
2006-2011 Fish&Fly Ltd